Transcript

[00:00] [Classroom Ambience by Free stock footages and sound effects]

Alejandro Echeverria [AE] [00:36]: Welcome back to AnthroPod. My name is Alejandro Echeverria. In today’s episode, “Pushing Buttons: Sexual Diversity and Dissidence in Academia,” we’re diving into a topic that’s both deeply important and often political in the U.S., sexual and gender diversity in the classroom. We’re going to unpack why this issue matters, not just from a cultural or academic perspective, but in terms of real-world implications for students, educators, and the future of scholarship. Sexuality has been a big topic in anthropology. For centuries, anthropologists have explored the different ways human societies express and understand sex and gender, especially in places like Africa, the Pacific Islands, Asia, and Latin America. These studies have taught us that sexuality is anything but fixed. It’s constantly shifting based on culture, time, and place. In more recent years, the term “sexual diversity” has become central in these discussions. It’s a term that captures a wide range of human sexuality, from sexual orientation and identity to behavior, desires, and practices. What makes “sexual diversity” so important is that it acknowledges that there’s no one right way to express sexuality. People experience it in so many different ways, and those experiences are shaped by sociopolitical contexts, including all kinds of factors, from gender and race to socioeconomic status and age.

[01:58] Early conversations about sexual diversity often focused on LGBTQ+ issues, especially in relation to health concerns like HIV/AIDS. But in recent years, many anthropologists have expanded the conversation. They’re asking, how do other social factors like race, class, region, and even age shape how we experience sexuality and what happens when we challenge the norm. How do we push back against the heteronormative and gender-binary frameworks that have shaped so much of our thinking about sexuality, gender expression, and desire. This push to rethink what’s considered normal is often referred to as “sexual dissidence,” which is about rejecting dominant sexual norms and embracing alternative, diverse expressions of desire, love, and sexuality. So why does all of this matter in a classroom where the exchange of ideas is meant to challenge assumptions and expand knowledge? Well, that’s what we’re here to talk about today. How do we, as anthropologists and educators, approach the complexities of sexual diversity and dissidence in academic spaces? How can universities be more inclusive of the wide array of sexual experiences and identities that students bring with them? In this episode, we’ll explore how these ideas intersect and overlap in education, research, and beyond. We’ll examine how they challenge rigid societal norms, open up new pathways for thought, and push for greater inclusion and acceptance in academia. Ultimately, we’re looking at how sexual diversity and dissidence can reshape the future of education and scholarship and why it’s crucial that we continue to foster inclusive spaces for all identities. Please stay with us.

[03:37] [All the Colors in the World by Podington Bear]

AE [03:57]: All right. Thank you, Joshua. Thank you for being here with us, for sharing a little bit about your work. Before we begin our conversation, I wanted to ask you a little bit about yourself, who you are and what you do.

Joshua Liashenko [JL] [04:10]: Yes. My name is Joshua Liashenko, pronouns he/they. I am Instructional Assistant Professor of Anthropology and Director of LGBTQ Studies at Chapman University in Orange, California. As an anthropologist, my work intersects both queer methodology and medical anthropology. My dissertation fieldwork was examining the role that trans and non-binary health care professionals have in providing gender-affirming care to their trans clients and patients. I was really interested in the ways in which the potential for activism can enter into clinical spaces and how trans people with clinical authority are able to potentially revolutionize or change the way in which trans-affirming health care operates throughout Southern California.

AE [05:06]: Can you share with us in your own work or teaching, how do you engage with sexual diversity or sexual and gender diversity, and what drives the way you approach it, and what does it mean to you personally?

JL [05:18]: Yeah, that’s a really great question. Let’s start with my research, because my research focused mostly on gender. Sexuality really wasn’t a part of my fieldwork and how I approach queer anthropology. However, in moments during interviews, there would be a participant would gesture to sexual experiences or to their own ways that they acknowledge or identify in terms of their sexuality and/or orientation.

For example, given forms of intersectional oppression that trans folks experience, I had a participant who provided details concerning sexual assault shortly after coming out while also navigating the professional life. And how that changed coming out later in life as an established health care provider. However, in my work with teaching and in shepherding the LGBTQ Studies program I, of course, teach my students a broad spectrum of topics that intersect with anthropology, but also with queer studies more broadly. I do actively engage with the anthropology of sexuality, and I challenge my students to think critically about these supposed divisions that we have been incorrectly taught to believe exist between gender and sexuality. And I really want to challenge them that how we imagine or how we think about gender is often influenced by sexuality and vice versa. The social and cultural expectations associated with sexuality, sexual behaviors are inherently gendered. When I’m trying to walk my students through a critical conversation of, for example, stereotypes within the queer community, why are there patterns of supposed gendered violations among gay men and/or lesbian women. I want them to explore how being a gay man or a lesbian woman in and of itself is a violation of cis-heteropatriarchy. The idea of someone who is male, longing sexually for another male in our society, that is supposed to be something that is for women.

[07:59] And so gay men are occupying a gendered space that is distinct and transgressive. And helping them unlearn some of the social as well as educational things that they’ve been taught, I think, incorrectly, just because we like to sometimes simplify these concepts, I think it’s really important that we provide that nuance.

AE [08:21]: Yeah, right? It’s important that we show how harmful these stereotypes are to students and showing that there’s a complexity of experiences among queer and trans individuals. Yeah, and hopefully through these many perspectives or experiences, we can show them or build more empathy or connections to these lives or perspectives. I feel like that’s an important thing that I try to do within my own teaching and research as well, trying to show that queer people’s and LGBTQ lives are worthy. They have worth.

JL [08:59]: Yeah. They’re worthy of engagement in various ways beyond just the pop cultural references that I think a lot of straight people, especially straight students, are consuming these days. So many students, whether they’re queer or otherwise, they want to engage with “RuPaul’s Drag Race” or shows like “Heartstopper.” They find queerness fascinating and interesting, and they relish in those kinds of very positive representations in media. Unfortunately, that leaves a lot to be desired concerning how we go one step further and be having a more rigorous, scholarly, and hopefully even ethnographic engagement with ways of doing gender, doing sexuality, and not relying upon identity, but thinking more broadly about desires, as opposed to these rigid constructs that we’ve been taught to inhabit.

AE [10:03]: Yeah, we usually take a static approach, especially to intersectionality. Like as all these individuals are just a list of different oppressive identities.

JL [10:16]: Yeah. That’s another problem, too. Students are being taught intersectionality incorrectly. Frankly, they never go back and read Kimberlé Crenshaw’s original works in which she coined the term, where coming out of Black feminism, it’s not about intersectional identity, but intersectional oppressions. How do these subjectivities and these positionalities, to borrow from the Foucauldian phrasing of subject position, if you will, how do these lived experiences play out within a sociocultural space that is inherently hostile to even exploring the dimensions of that oppression?

AE [11:00]: Yeah. Also I find it really interesting that you’re talking about the oppressions, right? I feel like these oppressive feelings or regimes or structures also are within the research itself on—

JL [11:16]: Anthropology has done such harm in decades past and how we approach sexual and gender diversity, whether it be what Gavriel Ansara calls coercive queering of subjects, applying this very colonial lens to gender and sexual diversity, forcing our Western terms of gay, lesbian, or trans, or non-binary on what I call gender expansion around the world, trying to really do away with third gender conceptualization. It’s one thing I teach when I teach queer anthropology.

JL [11:59]: It’s the first lesson they get is remove this phrase from your lexicon. We need to go beyond “third gender” because it’s re-insinuating that the binary is somehow normative, and the binary, how we construct it in the West is normative. We need to be critical of ourselves. That’s why I’m so grateful that I’ve been trained as an anthropologist because baked into that training was the reflexivity, the literary turn, the postmodern turn, and we’ve been trained to be critical of ourselves. Frankly, that’s a lot more than it can be said for other disciplines.

AE [12:42]: Yes, right. I like it that within anthropology, we acknowledge that the ethnographic research process is inherently a process that marginalizes queer researchers or trans researchers. We need to not only be reflective, but also try to change how we conduct research or produce knowledge or these epistemologies, right? And also change the structures and how we teach ethnographic research to further generations of anthropologists.

JL [13:15]: Yeah. It brings me back to graduate school training, having these debates and arguments about the role of sexuality in the field. Is it okay to engage in sexual relations within communities that you are embedded in? Is it okay to have sex with your participants? I would prefer to not have a directed opinion concerning whether it is right or wrong, ethical or unethical. I would like to leave those decisions up to the anthropologists who are in those spaces. But I think there is something to be said about how we engage with sexuality while doing research.

[14:02] Participant observation is all about, with consent, of course, all about engaging in culture with the people that we’re studying. And so, of course, we’ll enter into religious arenas and in ceremonies and traditions, and we will participate in festivals and celebrate holidays, all these elements of humanity. However, there is this notion that engaging sexually is off the table. And please do not misinterpret me. I’m not saying go out there and have sex with your participants. But what I am saying is there’s a question here. There’s something hanging. There’s something that we need to maybe engage with more critically as anthropologists is, is there a space for studying sexuality through a participant observer lens? And how do we navigate running the risk of delegitimizing our science, delegitimizing our data and ourselves by admitting that, yes, a part of our data was having sex with someone and then learning from it. That’s not something that I necessarily, personally, ever see myself navigating in my own professional life. But as someone who trains the next generation of scholars, including anthropologists, in teaching methods and attempting to shepherd students in these really difficult and somewhat dicey conversations, I think it’s worth our time to ponder.

AE [15:36]: Yeah, right? It is a big effort, right? And it is difficult at times to navigate these things. Especially, I would like to also add, as a queer person of color, my body, my brown body is already sexualized as it is, right?

JL [15:54]: Yeah, exactly.

AE [15:55]: Engaging in this type of research or these questions, right, further hypersexualizes my body.

It also leads me to more questions like, will this make my work even less credible? Will this open or close opportunities for publication or further collaboration with other anthropologists or researchers?

JL [16:14]: Exactly. That’s a really great point, too. I think there’s a lot of privilege in my own whiteness as an ethnographer and the whiteness of other ethnographers that might dare cross some of those boundaries, that they don’t have to question their expected legitimacy in the field, because there’s not that, as you said, that extra layer of their bodies being thrown into this critical space against their will. And so, yeah, that’s something really interesting that you bring up. I think it’s a really important point. If we’re going to do the sexually charged research, for lack of a better term, how do we do training that in and above itself is mindful that intersectional oppression within the academy? And anthropology is not excluded from that.

AE [17:12]: No, it’s not. Yeah.

[17:15] [5 Minute Sound Effects: Public Restroom by Global Audio Studios]

JL [17:31]: Then also, what’s something about how we engage sexuality in the classroom, how we teach about sexuality.

I definitely have boundaries and my own sensibilities and how I approach these issues, especially recognizing that many of our students, one, may have not engaged in sexuality or not engaged in sexual behavior, and they deserve the time and space to navigate that on their own in any way that they see fit. Two, many of our students have experienced sexual trauma, and they’ve experienced sexual violence. Three, some of our students are already sexually liberated, and they’ve found themselves sexually. If we’re going to be equitable educators, how do we effectively serve all of those types of students in the same classroom, in the same lecture, in the same discussion? We provide content and trigger warnings for those that might have discomfort. I’ve met students that have had discomfort around sexuality. Then how do we contextualize the discussion in ways that isn’t going to privilege certain voices over others or excludes certain students from fully engaging. That’s something that I wrestle with in terms of my own boundaries, for example, any personal details about my own life as a queer person in terms of my sexuality and how I behave sexually and what I do in my own sex life is completely off the table as not something I ever bring into the classroom. My students know I’m gay, they know I’m queer, they know I’m married to a man. If you think about our straight counterparts, they talk about the same stuff. To me, if people want to sexualize us because we’re open about being queer, that’s on them. We’re just living our lives, and how we live our lives is marked and othered in our society.

[19:58] One, I am fortunate to be working at an institution that not only supports me, but celebrates me for who I am and allows me to be in these spaces. But also, it’s really important that our queer students see someone that has power and authority, who’s done something with their lives and is “professional.” We can have a whole conversation about hetero professionalism as well, and its pitfalls. But it’s important for them to see us thriving as queer people. Being open about that is important. Then just facilitating the conversation. It’s not about me or what I do, but it’s about these concepts. Luckily, we can engage with these concepts through scholarly work, through ethnography, through case studies. We can be present in spaces and offer a lens to them that is embodied without crossing boundaries that could potentially lead to uncomfortable situations or make students uncomfortable or make us feel uncomfortable. And that’s just my take. I’ve met folks who have different perspectives on that, and I think there’s space for discussion. But yeah, I definitely believe having some set boundaries is really important.

AE [21:26]: Yeah, I agree. It’s good to have those boundaries. And it’s also important to offer more access to these queer voices, offering our lives, our perspectives. I’m assuming some of these individual students that we’re engaging with never had or seen a queer person in the classroom.

JL [21:49]: Exactly.

AE [21:49]: Or had a queer role model.

JL [21:50]: Or have them be out, too, especially in high schools or whatever. They might have had queer teachers, but they weren’t necessarily... They didn’t feel comfortable coming out. That’s a really good point.

AE [22:00]: Yeah. So I think it’s important that we’re doing this type of work, providing, making them open, making not only anthropology more accessible, but also queerness or the idea of queer liberation much more accessible.

JL [22:17]: Yeah, accessible and able to be played with intellectually. I think students these days, they have a lot of tension and a lot of anxiety. That has to do with a lot of different factors, especially since many of them were in middle or high school during the height of the pandemic and Zoom learning. All these people are now in college. College freshmen here in the early part of 2025, they were born in, what, 2006, which makes me feel quite old, and it’s a little bit disorienting. But that tension that is present within the classroom, they don’t know how to engage. They’ve never been equipped to engage with material like queer studies or queer theory or queer anthropology, where the point is ambiguity. The point is the messiness. The point is the indeterminancy. The point is this deconstruction. Eve Sedgwick calls this “open mesh of possibilities” and these very liminal intellectual environments, just getting them to accept that they don’t need to be an expert on anything. The point is learning the language of anthropology, learning the language of queer studies, that we know how to engage with it, either personally or academically or both, I think is also a challenge that we need to consider in how we approach these ideas in the classroom.

[24:00] [Field recording of a soccer game by Alejandro Echeverria]

AE [24:36]: It’s always seems that we’re touching a lot of topic. We’re touching on sexual diversity. We’re touching on dissidence, right?

JL [24:43]: Yes.

AE [24:44]: Especially in the academy. So how do you see these broader concepts connecting with diversity, equity, and inclusion within higher education? And where do you think these conversations are heading towards in the future?

JL [24:57]: I’m glad that you actually use the words diversity, equity, and inclusion, and not just a DEI, given that DEI in our contemporary body politic has become this catchphrase for the detractors of intellectual expansion. I think we need to be mindful of our current political and social moment. Many Americans are running on a diet of misinformation and still a lack of critical engagement with the world around them. All of us, I think, are stuck in echo chambers. Whether or not these echo chambers are evidence based or not, we do siloize ourselves. And that is detrimental for everyone, even those of us who find ourselves on the left or find ourselves with an abolitionist-type politics, liberation politics, queer politics.

[26:00]: I think that we need to be willing to engage differently or engage with folks who think differently, which can be really uncomfortable for us and for them. And that’s something that I think about as I’m teaching and trying to infuse these diversity, equity, and inclusion principles in the classroom. At Chapman, at our institution, we have a diversity, equity, and inclusion, a DEI general education requirement. We have courses that are designated as DEI courses, and students are all required to take a DEI course as a part of their coursework. I’m very happy that that exists, and I’m also very happy to report the Anthropology and Queer Studies classes are a part of that curriculum. So with that in mind, looking toward the future, we’re going to be... It’s going to be a real rough go for the next few years. The guardrails are off with the current administration in Washington. We’re recording this in early February of 2025. It’s only been a few weeks since the start of the second Trump presidency. We’ve already seen an absolute horrendous and terrifying slate of proposals and rhetoric. I think it’s also really important that we temper ourselves and we react to the reality of things as opposed to reacting to these very absurd and hyperbolic forms of rhetoric that are coming out—not that we should ignore them or dismiss them, but let’s not count our eggs before they’re hatched. Let’s make sure that we actually know what we’re dealing with.

[27:58]: When we are reacting, we are using our energy to combat these violences, to combat these forms of exclusion, we’re doing so in meaningful and sustainable ways. So incorporating diversity, equity, inclusion into the classroom continuously, I think we need to keep maintaining what we’ve been doing within the academy and infusing this within our curriculum. We need in every way to resist any type of regulation or censorship of that content. We need to just keep doing what we’re doing. We should not preemptively stop it. We should not preemptively change our language or change our tone. Let’s just keep doing what we’re doing. Find ways to be resistant. Many of our students are on our side. Many of our students are scared in ways that we could not even imagine. And so we need to lean into that. Our students, Chapman is in Orange County, and Orange County has a lot of stereotype and perceptions about what Orange County means. But in my time there, I’ve seen my classrooms become much more diverse, and are increasingly so. So we need to lean into our students needs and desires and amplify them and equip them, Because this time will pass. This difficult period, I have to believe that it will. If I don’t, I’m going to lose it. It’s going to pass. We need to not let ourselves deviate from the work that’s been done and the work that we’re already moving toward.

[29:00] [The Bell Tower Strikes the Hour — Sounds of UCR by UC Riverside]

AE [30:01]: For my next question I want to ask you is, what do you think are some key steps or strategies in creating a more inclusive classroom or educational spaces for students that really reflect the wide variety of sexual experiences and identities?

JL [30:16]: Yeah. In my experience, students who don’t take on an LGBTQIA+ identifier often feel excluded from a queer studies course and discussions in the classroom. Something that I hit home in the very beginning of some of the classes that I teach is that this content, queer theory, feminist theory, trans theory, it’s for everyone. Everyone can benefit from learning this content. Everyone can find liberation. Everyone can find space in which they can critique and question their own ideas about the world, their own worldview in ways that are very productive. Of course, as we know, queer theory is more than just gender and sexuality. Being rooted in the legacies of post-structuralism and post-modernism, and this deconstructive and extraordinarily malleable way of engaging with normativeness, for a lot of a better term, whether it be through knowledge production or just general social expectations and roles. Everyone can benefit from questioning the hegemonic ordering in which they were raised with.

AE [31:47]: Yeah. Have people question not only identities or the belief that identities are fixed or static. Or that your identities are situated in a certain place and are inalterable as we move across different space and times, temporalities.

We need these concepts in the classroom. We need to share these with the wider world. Also share that pleasure is a good... It’s good. It’s a liberating thing, a liberating experience, liberating the body, not only queer bodies, but also non-queer bodies in regards to pleasure or the erotic.

JL [32:28]: And non-queer bodies can also be queer bodies in ways that people are learning about themselves. I think that’s really important, too, in the era of accusations of grooming, especially among folks like us who teach queer studies and celebrate queer life and existence. Turning that narrative on its head, it is cis-hetero-normative society that has been doing the grooming. I was raised by straight parents, and I came out as queer as a three-dollar bill. I was groomed to be a straight person. Queerness was not something that was ever available to me. It was never an option to me growing up, and I still turned out the way that I did. And so turning that narrative on its head, none of us… I don’t enter the classroom to turn my students gay or turn them trans. If students realize things about themselves because of or through the content that’s presented to them in my course, then great. Most of the students that enter my classes, they don’t necessarily have a shift in how they perceive themselves when they exit in terms of what words they use. Some do, some don’t. And I think it’s wonderful to remember that it’s not the exposure to these ideas that lead people to take on a queer subjectivity.

[34:03] It’s the recognition like, Oh, wow, I’m learning about the world around me, and I’m gaining a new language, I’m gaining new insights, and I can see myself in this new language. I can see myself in these case that I can see myself in the ethnographic examples that we’re discussing. When they have that recognition, then it’s up to them to make that final declaration or not. That’s definitely something that’s really important about teaching this stuff.

AE [34:32]: Right. We’re teaching students about the diversity and the challenging norms, challenging the power structures are informing how they live their lives, how they create relationships. I’m hoping through teaching all these courses, incorporating queer voice and perspectives that students gain access or see that there’s many ways of building a healthy queer relationship, building a healthy relationship to their bodies or who they potentially will be in the future. I love that feeling. I’m incorporated or involved in changing perspectives or involved in the process of altering how people think about themselves, thinking about the world around them, and hopes through these small changes, they lead to bigger changes in the world or able to relate with each other in much more healthier ways. Deconstruct those boundaries, separating us from other individuals or other regions.

JL [35:26]: Yeah. Thinking of that cross-culturally, especially, as well as attempting to deconstruct these new binaries that we’ve created, like cis and trans, for example. I think it’s really important that we recognize that we’re all on gender journeys. Every single one of us is on a gender journey. Whether we want to admit to it or not is another question. But I often think critically about my own assumed cisness. And yes, I will use the term cis to refer to myself.

But I actually prefer in the classroom to acknowledge myself as someone that does not use the adjective trans to refer to my gender experience as a way of still acknowledging forms of oppression that trans folks experience, while also not continuously reifying this need for a binary, and this somehow of claiming of cisness. Cisness only does so much. Cisnormativity in itself is something that I think we need to work at deconstructing critiquing. But the idea of being cisgender and claiming a cisgender identity, I don’t think it’s necessarily as productive as maybe we once thought. I like to think of us all on different plot points on these spectrums. Based upon where we land, we experience different forms of privilege and oppression.

AE [36:54]: We need to see both these oppressions and privileges at the same time. These privileges and oppressions change.

JL [37:01]: Yes.

AE [37:01]: Subject to change, are subject to change, are dynamic. We’re not entirely victims or in this state of victimhood.

JL [37:07]: Yeah, I completely agree. Ending this deficit-based model of how we examine queer life and modeling that for our students. My research background in trans health care and medicine, we talk a lot about gender dysphoria and its diagnostic parameters. But I also love having my students engage with forms of gender euphoria and how being trans and living in a trans body or a non-binary body, a non-conforming body, whatever that might be, is a source of absolute joy and euphoria. Not ignoring the oppressions, of course, and the forms of violence, we need to discuss that.

But also not locking in queerness or transness into these deficit models, not locking in queerness and transness into these narratives of being negative. And also, having our students learn the pathway toward acceptance and livability isn’t through homonormativity. It’s not through transnormativity. It’s not through bowing to the will of heteronormativity and just doing queerness but in a way that’s palatable to the straight hegemon. How can we forge new paths, new potentialities, new ways of being that is separate from those expectations? I think that goes into what we were talking about earlier with the current political state of our society and of the world.

AE [38:51]: I want to also add on to that. I like all the points you’re saying, and we have to think about queerness as existing in all spaces beyond those conventional or common assumed queer spaces, like gay bars or clubs or the gay neighborhoods. Queer people are found in all spaces. And I think through this lens, we’re able to open up new worlds, new spaces where queer people are more liberated, much more free to be who they are, and all ways or forms that it can be possible, moving beyond heteronormativity and homonormativity, all these dominant models that we believe are essential for queer liberation.

JL [39:36]: Yeah. And also, that’s a really great point. And resisting the internal community policing, prioritizing one way of being queer, one way of being gay, one way of being trans, and recognizing that there is a plurality.

AE [39:55]: Yeah. Plurality of bodies, plurality of pleasures, plurality of relationships. Right everything.

I think that’s going back to what we said earlier, the expansiveness.

JL [40:06]: Yes. Also, we’re all these plot points on the spectrum of gender as well as sexuality. I think it’s totally fine to claim terms and labels. I do. I actively use gay and queer. Of course, they have different meanings for me. Gay is specific to my gender experience and to my sexual orientation. But queer also touches on that, but I think in ways that is highly politicized and puts me into coalition with other queer folks. I do everything I can to seek a coalition with lesbians, with trans people, with non-binary folks, and other folks who are part of what we call the Alphabet Mafia. I want coalition building. I think coalition building is going to be a key political tactic in surviving however many years it’s going to be until we see the pendulum swing in ways that will give us a promise for an increased livability of queer lives.

AE [41:09]: Well, thank you, Joshua. Thank you for coming with us and sharing with us some of your work and experiences in teaching and research.

JL [41:17]: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. I love this conversation and happy to participate again in the future.

[41:24] [Classroom Ambience by Free stock footages and sound effects]

AE [41:39] We hope you enjoyed today’s episode on the crucial importance of creating a more inclusive learning environment where all students feel respected, valued, and safe to be themselves, especially in a time when the rights of marginalized communities are under attack.

[41:54] As we continue to confront challenges to diversity, inclusion, and LGBTQ+ rights, it’s vital that we stand strong in advocating for the recognition and protection of sexual and gender diversity in education. To learn more about the scholars and voices you heard today, please visit our website at culanth.org. That’s C-U-L-A-N-T-H-dot-org. You’ll also find a transcript of this episode along a list of recommended works on sexual and gender diversity. A special thank you to Stephen Horneman and Michelle Hak Hepburn for reviewing this episode, and to Sharon Jacobs for her invaluable guidance. A warm shoutout as well to our fellow podcasters and friends for their continued support in amplifying these important conversations. My name is Alejandro Echeverria, and thank you for listening to another episode of AnthroPod, The Podcast for the Society of Cultural Anthropology. We hope to see you soon.

[42:53] [All the Colors in the World by Podington Bear]